All right, well, here we go. Drew Nelson in the house. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining. I absolutely appreciate that. I’m looking forward to picking your brain and learning something about this crazy world of group insurance. It gets crazier by the day. It’s amazing how whether you are an insurance agent or, heaven forbid, a person out there seeking out group insurance, how confusing the subject matter is. Absolutely. People do not understand how insurance works in the first place. And then all of a sudden you bundle it up in a shiny little package called Group so you can offer this to all your employees. And all of a sudden you’re looking at the employer and the employer is scared because it won’t make the wrong decision. Because financially a concern for their company. But then b also want to provide a good benefit for their employees. Right. Right. And so that balance of, of, being the captain of their ship and having, knowing that all the employees are looking to them for guidance. Last thing they want to do is pick a bad option. Oh, yeah. Because it can haunt them for 12 months. Correct. And so, you know, being a person, being an agent myself, you know, business owner, first entrepreneur for lots of years and had over 100 employees for a long time. It was very nerve wracking for me, to have these benefits come in regarding my employees, you know, before long before I got into the insurance space. I really wanted and strived to be a good employer out there in the world, and my retention was always very solid, but I was never at a point, because I had restaurants, it was very difficult financially for me actually. Qualify. You could say not really qualified, but to be able to provide a large enough portion of the health care costs for my employee that made it affordable for them to want to pay the other difference. Right, right. You know, and so this group insurance world, there’s a lot of things that, you know, people don’t understand about just how these policies are funded from an employer standpoint, like what percentage that they have to fund, you know, how what what’s this thing called participation requirements. So if I have 50 employees, how many employees have to jump on the plane? Right. Participation. And if they jump on what does that mean? I have to provide insurance for their spouse and children as well. Do I have to do it? Nobody understands the difference. Students have to choose and want to choose, right? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And then we throw the bigger curveball in the mix, which is your specialty, which would be what’s called level funding. Right. So now we have all these other plans out there. Not only is it confusing for the employer, how much am I going to fund? How many employees need to jump on the plan? What scheme, affordable, blah blah, blah, blah blah, or, you know, well, now they have the struggle of trying to figure out what, what plan makes sense. And there’s some very financially attractive options that I would argue most employees have. No, most employers have no idea about, oh, 100%. Right. And so that’s what we’re going to kind of today pull back the curtain on. We could probably talk about a lot of different things in group insurance, but we’re going to try to forego some of the particulars, just like I have originally brought up. And we’re going to try to focus on the differences, the three different types of group insurances out there. Perfect. Okay. So, what just, why don’t you kind of. Why don’t you tell us what these three different types are and just open the door? We’ll start there. Perfect. Yeah. So, you know, as you mentioned, you’ve got in the industry currently and have been for the last x number of years, three different pathways. A business can be insured for their health plan. And the third one has really gained traction since the adoption of the Affordable Care Act. So prior to that, the vast majority of you were a smaller employer. Small employers can be defined differently in each state, but typically it’s either below 50 or below 100. Enrolling or eligible employees. That also can vary state by state. So to not get too messy, but if you were a smaller employer, almost all of those companies were on a what’s called a fully insured plan. So in today’s environment, that’s a product that is under the Affordable Care Act umbrella. But the old quote unquote, Obamacare plans, where a lot of the old ways of pricing for insurance got excluded, they could no longer rate for your, pre existing conditions. They couldn’t rate any ongoing medical ailments that you have. And there was a benefit to it because prior to the Affordable Care Act, there were groups that would be dealing with possibly being declined of coverage because ongoing chronic conditions or they were paying exorbitant amounts of premium because they’re being priced on their risk, which is what underwriting and insurance is about pricing appropriately, because no insurance company stays in business if they’re. And so the solution or what the Affordable Care Act did was allow individuals or businesses the capability to not be denied coverage, but by doing so, what they ended up doing was creating a solution where all things are created equal, which they’re not. Right? So everyone, regardless of you being the healthiest diet dieting marathon runner, or someone who is on daily dialysis, you’re going to have the exact same price for your health insurance cost, which we do need to help those that wouldn’t have a solution. I don’t disagree with that totally, but there needs to be more than one choice. And so when ACA went into effect, a lot of the insurance companies took one of two paths. They said, we either need to just get out of this altogether because we don’t see a path of profitability. Or we need to find another mechanism of how we can provide insurance and still use the same tools and skills that we’ve had in the past, which was their skill set being medical underwriting, being able to look at the risk and price appropriately. So what they did was they ventured away from looking at it from a fully insured standpoint, and they looked at what the large employers did. And that’s the opposite end of the spectrum, which is self-funding. And with a self-funding plan, what you’re essentially doing is you’re purchasing a policy from an insurance company. They’re also deemed as stop loss providers. It’s big brands that you’re probably well aware of if you’d see the contract. But those contracts would say something to the business owner of. Once your employee population has claims in excess of X, then we will come in and protect you. And that number could be $100,000. It could be $1 million. It could be well, even north of that. And then you get into the really large, like hundreds of thousands of employee corporations. They don’t even have one of those contracts in place. They’ve got such deep pockets that they just self-insure in perpetuity. But for the most self-insured plans, there is a cutoff point where the risk to the employer is gone. And so what those fully insured carriers, which helps lower their premium. Correct. Which that’s the goal. Yeah. Because if the insurance company doesn’t have to pay for every single claim from day one, right, they’re only triggered at a certain threshold, they’re again going to look at the population in the industry that they’re in, because certain industries have a greater risk of daily just involvement of work than others. And so they’ll factor all those items in to assume they never have to pay on any of those claims and allow that business owner to self-insure for their policy since the pay the bill comes up. Yep, paid the bill as it comes up. They’re still collecting premiums from employees, but what they’re doing is they’re paying the claims that the employees are incurring from the premium dollars they’re collecting. So they’re keeping it all internally self-contained. Right. But at the same time, those fully insured companies, when they looked to the self-funding world of, okay, what are they doing on large companies and large corporations to insure themselves because they are able to circumvent a lot of the Affordable Care Act regulations that got put into place. So they said, okay, we like what they’re doing, but there’s also a lot of things that are required, especially like paying claims with money that you’re taking in. And it’s just a little complex, especially for a smaller employer to have to manage and maintain these things either on a daily or a weekly basis. They don’t have a department, an HR department knows, many of them don’t. And even if they do, HR is usually spread pretty thin. And so they said, well, what if we took a lot of the mechanics of what a self-funding plan does, but built it in such a way for smaller employers so it can still feel and function in a way similar to the fully insured style world. So they can just pay a premium and that’s all that they really need to focus on. Every single month is just you pay your bill. Everything is going to get managed and paid for behind the scenes. Like all of your former insurance plans did, but with level funding, what’s different is on a fully insured product, you’re paying a premium for insurance like you do with many insurance policies. You’re paying. You’re transferring your risk somewhere else, and the hope of the insurance company is you never use your benefits because then all of that money you sent them, they keep it as profit level funding plans operate on a different basis because first and foremost, they’re going to be fully transparent of where every dollar you send them goes on a monthly basis. You’ll send in a premium check. That’s cool. Yeah, they’ll show you, hey, this is how much we’re going to spend for our customer service and administration and all the things that make the plan run. And then we’ll also show how much of your money that you gave us was spending on claims. And the big added benefit to that is one you get to know, are we even using our benefits to begin with? But secondly, at the end of the year, if all of the money you sent in to the insurance company was not used for claims, they were going to reimburse the business a percent or the full remaining amount that was done. So, yeah, it’s an unknown option out there to a lot of businesses right now. And it’s either unknown because you don’t see commercials for health insurance companies targeting businesses, you know, advertising all these cool things they can do. The majority of marketing of all these programs go to the agent in the broker level channels. So it’s really up to a business owner to seek out a broker to find out what’s even available. Otherwise, they’ll be completely in the dark if they go and call directly to an insurance company. These solutions are typically never brought to light. So if I just understood you correctly, you’re telling me that I could potentially get a rebate on my monthly premiums that I pay the insurance company? Correct? Okay. All right. Well, that’s a new concept. I don’t think so. And that’s a very few people have heard of. A big advantage because most businesses have no idea if their benefits are being used in the right way. Our certain benefits are being abused, like everyone’s going into the emergency room for strep throat. There are ways you can retool and build your plan accordingly. So certain benefits don’t get abused. But additionally, if you notice you’re paying for certain coverage that isn’t being used at all, you’ve got customization capabilities to remove certain benefits so that you’re not paying all this extra cost. It’s no different than buying a car these days. Who would pay for navigation on a vehicle when you can just use your phone for free, right? So when you can find all these different tactics of every function of my plan comes at a cost. If I can take out certain functions without it negatively affecting my employees, why don’t we do that? Especially if it can lower our fixed cost on our insurance budget by five, ten, 20%? Well, we all know for those people who have been employers out there, it’s it’s it’s you definitely want your employees to be healthy because obviously you want them coming to work. Yeah, right. If they’re sick, obviously they’re not coming to work typically. Yep. And so there’s a strong incentive already to try to help keep employees in a good mental headspace and in physical health. Headspace I mean, physical space period. Because you want to come to work. Yeah. So I mean, it sounds like this is just another incentive of why some employers would like to encourage, you know, a healthy lifestyle and take a walk at lunch or whatever else to try to keep people healthy. And they’re also going to potentially get a rebate for that, which is not possible in a fully insured plan. Well, it technically is in the fully insured world, but it operates differently because it’s done on a more global scale, because there’s a function of fully insured plans called the minimum loss ratio. Okay. Or the Mller rebates. So if the plan itself is, not just from a company perspective, but all businesses in a certain geographic area run less than expected, because every dollar that gets sent into an insurance plan, 85% of that dollar needs to be spent on claims. That was one of the provisions of the ACA. I didn’t realize that was applicable to the group world. Yes, I knew that was in the individual market. Yep. Okay. It is applicable to the group world, but there’s also a lot of ways they can play shell games with that money to not need to reimburse it. So, it’s not easy to just go online and see how you are trending in terms of how much of your money is being spent. There’s possibly people that are listening to this who have seen checks come back to them saying, hey, there was unused funds that will come back to the individual level. That’s minuscule at most, what these dollar figures are. But the level funding takes it way further because it provides, monthly snapshots of what’s been paid in to your policy, how much has been used, and then what you’re standing at year to date, either at a deficit or a surplus surplus being money available that would be refunded at the end of the year. They’re at a deficit if they’re running worse, meaning than how much they’ve paid in. There’s no added, additional financial exposure to the business. They’re still covered the exact same way. Your worst case scenario is what you’re paying in every single month in premium. Wow. And that’s, that’s, a new concept, right? I mean, for most businesses, that’s, that’s I’ve never heard this. I’m sure for most businesses it isn’t new. It’s a newer concept. It really took off once. Community rating in the ACA went into play, because all these companies were looking for a way to survive and still practice underwriting the way they always had, which before the Affordable Care Act, people were doing questionnaires and health history evaluations and being priced based on their risk. So now we’re in an environment, and every year I’m sure many business owners are just feeling the pinch year over year, regardless of whether they use their benefits or not. They’re always seeing their renewal go up and there’s nothing they are told they can do about it. Level funding provides more control in their hands because one now their individual business can be priced based on the risk of just their employee population, instead of being just broadly pooled in with everybody else. Most businesses, that’s an advantage for them. There are still going to be a small subset, 15 to 20% of companies that still have enough of their population that have ongoing conditions, or this day and age high cost medications is the big one, right. They’re being just pedaled left and right. So let’s jump into that a little bit. So what companies do you know, what would be the ideal candidate? Well, what would my company need to look like to be an ideal candidate for a level funded versus a fully funded plan? It’s changed a lot. Over the last 4 or 5 years the margins of costs used to be much tighter between fully insured and level funding products. But these days, the difference is just the initial cost. So initially we haven’t looked at the health of a group on a level funded product. But here’s our starting rate based on your census population and what type of work they do versus the fully insured market, who doesn’t care about any of that? Right? We sometimes are looking at deltas of 40 to 50% difference in cost. Wow. So there’s a huge margin that the employer can feel to a certain degree. Confidence is okay. Do I think the risk of my staff is that great that we will surpass, the level funding rates would surpass that of the fully insured market. Chances are, if you’ve got that many chronic conditions going on, it’s likely not always there. There are certain medications employers have no idea their staff takes or certain conditions they have that they’re going to be completely blind to. But for the most part, a majority of companies, I would say 80% of them, it’s the census makeup. The ideal one is of a younger population. And I’ll always hear that all the time. But that’s not so much becoming the case anymore. You can have a middle aged population, employees in their mid 40s, younger, 50s, and sometimes as long as we’re just not tipping a bunch of people Medicare age on the census, then we can still be providing more savings because they’re being highly rated as well in the fully insured marketplace the older they get. And so there still can be savings in that realm as well. So the big it sounds like the big no, no, I guess the big the group that would really have challenges, as you said, kind of in, because there’s a risk assessment that’s made correct, correct on the group. So they do stand the risk of even being offered a plan. And then even if they were offered a plan, it sounds like they probably wouldn’t have much opportunity to to save on the cost savings side of the. What is the aggregate lot? What do you call that it’s referred to as the aggregate limit or the aggregate stop loss. Some people just call it the claim fund so it gets a little easier. Visualization. So that’s the one. And it’s that number there that they would have the opportunity to get a rebate from. But if you had a less than healthy, less than stellar, if you had a huge claim year, that’s going to be diminished. And so you wouldn’t get the rebate, but you still have all the same great benefits and still have that stop loss in place. And it didn’t have any. So the big risk here too, it sounds like, if I understand you correctly, that the only group that really there’s no risk to applying. Correct. It might be a waste of their time because they do have to physically qualify. It has to make sense for on the level funding. You could deny them true coverage. We could say no. We’ve taken a look at the risk. And here’s a I’ll tell agents and brokers I speak to every day that there’s no risk to being on a level funding plan. If you enroll, you have a bad year. Worst case scenario, if you’re still a small group, you’ve got the Affordable Care Act market to fall back on, which doesn’t care about what your history has done. Fully funded plans. Yep. Okay. And so I would implore just about every business to do the questionnaires so they one fully know the business owner not to know the risk of their individual staff, but the risk of their population because they’ll be told one of two things. You’re either a good fit for level funding or you’re a better fit for fully insured. And that way, if you’ve done the questionnaires and you find out, oh, we are unfortunately not as healthy as I had hoped, they know they’re getting the better value being on a fully insured plan, because otherwise if they were level funding, they’d be paying more. Now, the alternative, and the vast majority of companies, they’ll go through the questionnaire process and it’s just basically telling each business owner, this is the pool you belong to to get the most value out of your product. And most of those businesses, especially the ones that saw a major spike when the ACA went into play and their overall population has stayed fairly healthy from that point on, they will be the ones that recognize substantial savings in cost and then the added benefit it’s we always try to not sell the concept on the on the refund because you’re never guaranteed that money. Whether it’s you bringing on a new hire midyear that has just something you couldn’t have foreseen when you installed the policy. But there are shock claims like car accidents, things like that that occur. So the money you could get back is never guaranteed. What is guaranteed is how much did we save you upfront or the premiums. If we saved you a dollar more than the fully insured market, then it’s just a gamble throughout the rest of the year to say, okay, how much more are you going to net in savings at the end based on what was unused for premium claims? Yeah, it’s unheard of to be able to think that there’s a product out there you could potentially save, 20 to 40% or 50% on some premiums every month and also have the opportunity to potentially get a rebate, which is, you know, not necessarily what you’re buying it for. Right. But that’s still I mean, it’s intriguing to me that it’s going to be, such a limited rebate at the fully insured price point, but it does make sense when that would typically be a smaller, healthy pool of people. You know, your company that’s now mixed in with every other unhealthy company that’s in the fully insured market in that region. Right. How those rebates are not they’re chewed up because you’re that risk is being absorbed amongst the massive population. Right. And at the end of that. Right. So, when I first heard about this concept, it’s like, well, tell me more. This is intriguing. So, I don’t know. I wish it wasn’t so confusing. You know, I mean, that’s the biggest challenge with this. I wish insurance as a whole. I’m kind of the opinion, it seems to me. And I could be completely false with this, but it seems like an, the way insurance is put together was kind of almost. It almost seems like it was designed to confuse the consumer. So we buy out of fear. Yeah. You know, and so that we’re, you know, most people have no idea about this thing called out-of-pocket maximum. When you talk to them, they just hear the word 20%, and they assume they’re on the hook for 20% to infinity. Right? So you just your average consumer out there just doesn’t understand how health insurance works, period. It’s remarkable. And it’s unfortunate considering how expensive it is, how little time employees invest in understanding it, but also even the employer they just think it’s a very, very expensive light item these days, if not the second most expensive thing in people’s lives. Sometimes it overcomes even their mortgage payment if they’ve got a family they’re insuring. And then on top of that, it’s the emotional side of thinking that you’re putting your family at risk if you don’t choose the right plan. Oh yeah. Right. And because once somebody is injured, you’re going to move heaven and earth to help your spouse, your child. Right? You’ll sell off everything. I’ve seen some really, you know, some bad situations where people bought into the wrong plans, had a small network to save money and then found out they knew somebody contracted some, some sort of, illness that they needed this particular specialist that was out of network. So they had to dig into their own pocket anyway. Right. Or it was natural. They had a natural path down in Tijuana or something that they could, you know, do some cancer treatment down there. But so they didn’t wipe out their savings doing these experimental treatments. A lot of people don’t realize that these things aren’t covered within these plans, regardless if it’s level funded, fully funded, it’s not covered, period. But that brings up another topic about, just understanding the differences between level funded and fully funded. Is there any difference in the networks of providers? Yes and no. Because it really comes down to who it’s being provided from all the big players in the market. Your blues, UnitedHealthCare, your Aetna’s, Cigna, Humana’s exiting the market so their own longer bundled in with that clan. But they all provide level funding solutions. Whether some of these companies are aware or business owners are aware, they can get that option from those companies or not. They’re obviously beholden to their own brand. So you’re only going to get a blues network from blues. There’s then the more independent TPA style of level funding, where it’s a company that goes out and shops all the individual components that make up the health insurance plan, and they will have multiple selections to pick from. So they might be able to provide more than one network solution. PPO EPO HMOs are pretty rare, rare to be found in the self-funding market. Occasionally you’ll come across that, but most commonly you would see Cigna being the rented and offered network through most level funded products. Aetna is kind of a secondary solution that can also be provided as an option. And then there’s other creative things they can do without even providing a network, which we won’t go down that rabbit hole. On this conversation. But I would say from an equivalently stacked physician access perspective, most metropolitan areas that you look at across the country, it almost doesn’t matter which brand of your insurance you’re with. From a network perspective, they’re pretty equally stacked. Once you start getting outside of the city limits, that’s where you’re going to notice a greater difference in provider access. So you want to definitely pay more attention to who the network is from. So it sounds like it’s not there’s not a concern of whether you’re going to be fully funded or level funded as far as provider network is what you’re saying is correct. And truly, what we’ve started seeing is because of the guaranteed issue ACA market, as it’s progressively gotten more and more expensive because all these new things they have to cover and all these new drugs are getting introduced in the market that the plan says, well, you have to pay for it. So why wouldn’t pharmaceutical manufacturers say, let’s create all these new fun drugs that cost a half $1 million a pop, right? Because these plans are going to have to eat the cost. So because the plans cover it, they’re going to have to increase the price to the user itself. Whereas, with the level funding plans, it’s still going to cover all the same ACA required provisions that the plan needs to. So it’s not all preventative care. That’s a lot of care that’s being covered. Maternity benefits, all the things that people feared they would not be getting are still going to be provided through a level funding solution. It’s just that we get to look into the cookie jar of what’s going on with your employees. What is the health status of your staff, what are the ongoing meds, what are the ongoing conditions? And the underwriter can then price, with a varying degree of certainty, how they think based on those conditions. And your employee population. The benefits will get used throughout the year, and they’ll price the plan so that the money does not get used up in the group’s claim fund. If all that occurs is the continuation of those chronic conditions, if they get worse or you bring on new employees, that’s where their science and methodology kind of just becomes a crapshoot. And they hope for the best. Right. And they’re just to be adjusted when you get to next year’s plan. Correct. So it’s nothing they can never adjust the price midyear. Nope. You get locked in just as you would want to be locked in, because you don’t want this volatility based on your population coming and going or your claims utilization being low or high. That was the whole design and model of level funding. Is your premiums being your employee rate, your spouse rate, your child rate is level the entire time regardless of what happens. So you have a number that you can bank on being what you can budget for. As small business owners, every dollar counts. Yeah that’s critical. And you want to have that stop loss. You don’t want to have any little liability out there that can trip you up. Well, that’s, all this, I mean, just sounds so, so positive. So what’s the downside? The downside? It’s pretty difficult to point anything out in particular. Because like I mentioned earlier that most businesses should go through the process to see are we a good candidate for it or not? The downside will either be they don’t qualify, but they would then know fully insured is where we belong. At least that’s where we belong this year. So the only downside is you’re going to be right back in the very market that you started in, correct? That’s the only downside that I’m here. And then after, if you do qualify, meaning you have a essentially better price than the fully insured market, you go on level funding for a year if something occurs unforeseen, etc., where you end up having a bad renewal and you’re forced and or just there’s a better price going back to the fully insured market, that’s kind of your worst case scenario, which I would argue companies should be doing it anyway. They should be shopping for insurance every year. Should I mean, they should. I mean you should. Nobody wants to know. Yeah. Everybody’s comfortable. Nobody wants to switch their plans. I get it. But from a price perspective they really should. The market’s constantly evolving. Oh yeah. There’s a lot of I mean the vast majority of groups by design of ACA has been all bundled into the last few months of the year when their policies renew. So even just from an agent’s capability of time, it’s very difficult for them because there is more involved in this process. You can’t just send in a census, get a rate and say, pick an option one down, 1 to 99. We need to still do the questionnaires and find out the health of the group. So it does take a little bit more work, but the reward of how much you can save, I would say, greatly outweighs the extra 5 to 15 minutes an employee would need to set aside to do that questionnaire, because it’s benefiting them too. As you mentioned earlier on, like employer contribution, most businesses out there fund 50% of the employee only rate on the health insurance plan. So what is that number? It will vary fully insured. It’ll vary level funding. But employees it’s a lot that they have to pay for too. So I would imagine if there was anything that they could control to reduce that amount that they’re paying. This is a way to do it. That’s a great point. And then they have actually the skin in the game, you know, and they have incentive to stay healthy because it’s going to reduce the portion that they’re having to pay in. Makes total sense that I really didn’t consider that side of that. Yeah. It’s a benefit to all parties involved. Yes. The money does come back on the business level. And you definitely want to advise a tax professional on all the ways that you can disperse those funds or reinvest them. But the employees will feel the benefit of being on a level funded product by having lower renewals. Typically their benefits won’t change, drastically year over year or shouldn’t for just means of cost containment. And that’s been what a lot of things have occurred in the fully insured market, as networks have even become narrower and narrower, just to be able to keep costs not seemingly just exponentially increasing year over year. Instead of changing deductibles, it’s easier to say, well, instead of giving you 100,000, doctors will give you 30,000, right? And I assume that they’re still out-of-network benefits as well. Yeah, you’ll still have the same out of network coverage. So from an employee’s standpoint, they don’t really even know the difference between a level of funding or a self-funding plan. Operationally, it functions the same way. The employer’s the one that has that line of sight into just. Here’s some reporting we provide you of how you use your benefits on a general level, not the employee specific level. Correct? Yeah. On a general level, imagine getting a document in the mail, kind of like I’m most people, I’m sure get these consistent auto insurance mailers. I mean, on a monthly basis, your premiums are constantly changing. I love those letters. Yeah, but imagine if you got that letter that said you gave X Insurance Company $150 this month. We only spent 60 bucks of it on actual operational costs. And there are insurance policies out there for auto that do operate. If you don’t get in the crash, we’ll give you money back. Level funding is kind of around that same concept. If you don’t cause the insurance company to have to pay out more in claims than you gave them, they’ll give you some of that money back. What? I’d like you to show me those policies, because I haven’t gotten in a wreck or had many claims, and I have not gotten any rebates back. I’m not one myself, but I’ve just heard the commercials. I don’t know, I think you’re talking about unicorns here, brother. I don’t know if I should buy that. Could be gone to the wayside by now. Well, this is, you know, this is great. I really look forward to hearing and learning more about these plans. I can tell you, a quick little experience that I just had, quoting fully insured, your product. And basically, at the end of the day, to your point, it was starting off at a, I think it was close to a well, let’s see, it was a $1,000 a month swing. So it was a 30% reduction in monthly premium, right, for this group. And with that 30%, you know, we explained to them about an HSA, a health savings account and how I consider taking that savings that you would typically spend in monthly premium and roll those dollars into an HSA account for your employees. In that way, they have dollars sitting in a savings account that they can use for whatever they see fit. Dental vision. Yeah, doctors copays. And if they have a very healthy year, they don’t use any of it. Great. Guess what? They have money sitting in an account that accrues for years to come. And, and, they were just tickled pink about the whole concept. And it still kept them well under their budget and still ultimately saved them money compared to what just their standalone premiums would have been for the fully funded, fully insured product? Sure. And they were elated. I mean, they were just very happy with that concept. And so that would have never been an option. Even when I quote an HSA on a fully funded product, the cost is still so high that, you know, then stacking on additional benefits on there it typically just isn’t received well for the employer. It’s just it’s already it’s a sting. You know what I mean. Yeah. So, it brought a really unique option to the table. That the employer really likes the employee that came with them. The HR director loved it. You know, her being the beneficiary of this, these HSA dollars, and, you know, it was just a great experience for everybody, which is unusual when you’re having a health insurance conversation with somebody. Right? Nobody likes that conversation. Who wants to talk about that? Yeah, it’s definitely a more enjoyable product to sell because you’re typically always having conversations of showing how much we can save you. Right. And then it boils down to afterwards. All right. Here’s the final evaluation. Evaluated rates based on the risk. How much are we still saving you? It might be the original number that we provided if your population is very healthy. Great job. This is going to be the benefit of you guys being good stewards of you know, hopefully if there is any involvement from the employer to help the employees stay healthy, great. But sometimes it’s just luck of the draw and they will see a almost always double digit reduction in monthly premiums going the level funded route. Right. Well, this has been really interesting. I, I, I want to thank you for coming out today and sharing some of this information. I think this is a good high level conversation. Hopefully you’ll be willing to come back and maybe deep dive a little deeper on some of these details for those who really want to geek out, which I don’t think there’s too many people out there, but you never be surprised. You’d be surprised. But either way, this is really good stuff. Everybody wants to know how to save money. Everybody wants to protect their business, protect their family, protect their wallet. And here’s just another way out there. But it’s hard to find those agents who are familiar with this who want to learn this other angle. I think you would agree. It’s probably been challenging to find those agents who don’t want to just take the easy path. Yeah. And it’s and there’s a lot of I hate using the word misinformation. But there are definitely going to be articles out there of bad experiences, unlevel funding, and it’s to be taken with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of different companies out there that provide solutions. And level funding has been around for almost 30 years, and it’s gone through a lot of iterations. The protections that are in place for the business owner now didn’t used to be put in place, so there was a lot more financial shock and all liability that they wouldn’t be aware of. Gotcha. And it’s still it. I would say I advise due diligence to make sure you know what you’re getting. And that’s where I fully advocate to have an agent involved or a broker involved when shopping these out, because they’ll be able to tell you and read through all the different contracts to see, is this plan covering things the same way that you’ve always had coverage? Where are going to be possibly any reductions from what you’re used to? And does that even matter? All right. Well, it’s, it’s all good stuff. So Drew Nelson Regional Vice President, sales, optimal benefits. Thank you very much for coming out and being part of our show today. Thank you for having me. All right. Look forward to doing many more. All right. Sounds good. All right. Take care. You too.